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Pat Gardiner
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:52:25 +0100, Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Posted more widely...
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
|
So you decide to repeat to an ever wider selection of newsgroups who
have never heard of me that I'm paranoid.
I rather think you have lost your grip.
Now let me take this slowly:
Merely because you were the first man as far as I know to mention PMWS
and MRSA and pigs in the same sentence does not entitled you to any
special privilege.
OK to the total fury, no doubt, of the NFU, CLA, BPEX and just about
every other quango and lobby group in the known universe, you
reluctantly admitted that the pigs were indeed sick on
uk.business.agriculture, way back in early 2002.
You then spent the next six years rubbishing the man who forced the
admission and encouraging others to do the same
It is the last bit that will screw you in the end. You won't be able
to claim the credit in mitigation.
Rather the contrary, you knew and deliberately targeted the whistle
blower.
Claiming, as the others will do, that they were just ignorant and
following their leader won;t do for you.
Once the population at large, here and in North America, realise that
MRSA and possibly C.Diff is reaching the hospitals from pig farms,
they will be looking for someone to blame.
If you will insist in throwing yourself into their path shouting "it
was me", they will probably believe you. Personally I don't much care.
But your mania for kudos is endangering my drive to get the bent vets
before the international courts.
--
Regards
Pat Gardiner
Release the results of testing British pigs for MRSA and C.Diff now!
www.go-self-sufficient.c |
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Pat Gardiner
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:52:25 +0100, Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Posted more widely...
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
|
So you decide to repeat to an ever wider selecttion of newsgroups who
have never heard of me that I'm paranoid.
I rather think you have lost your grip.
Now let me take this slowly:
Merely because you were the first man as far as I know to mention PMWS
and MRSA and pigs in the same sentence does not entitled you to any
special privilege.
OK to the total fury, no doubt, of the NFU, CLA, BPEX and just about
every other quango and lobby group in the known universe, you
reluctantly admitted that the pigs were indeed sick on
uk.business.agriculture, way back in early 2002.
You then spent the next six years rubbishing the man who forced the
admission and encouraging others to do the same
It is the last bit that will screw you in the end. You won't be able
to claim the credit in mitigation.
Rather the contrary, you knew and deliberately targeted the whistle
blower.
Claiming, as the others will do, that they were just ignorant and
following their leader won;t do for you.
One the population at large, here and in North America, realise that
MRSA and possibly C.Diff is reaching the hospitals from pig farms,
they will be looking for someone to blame.
If you will insist in throwing yourself into their path shouting "it
was me", they will probably believe you. Personally I don't much care.
But your mania for kudos is endangering my drive to get Britain's bent
vets before the international courts.
--
Regards
Pat Gardiner
Release the results of testing British pigs for MRSA and C.Diff now!
www.go-self-sufficient.com |
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Oz
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
Sometimes your voice is muffled when you sit down. If I produce both fruit
and fuel from the same trees then I am producing two crops, one edible, one
not.
And is this described as a food crop, or an inedible fuel crop?
One is a food crop, the other is an inedible crop. Both grown on the
same land and both from the same tree. In fact to make matters more
complicated we also grow a third crop beneath the trees and in some
years a fourth.
|
Its a food crop. The others are incidental as far as politicians are
concerned.
| Quote: |
we practice rotation and grow legumes every fourth crop. We have no
petrochemical fertiliser input.
|
No tractor power, sprays etc? In any case that's irrelevant to it being
a food crop.
| Quote: |
Bear in mind the context up the thread a bit, if that's not too hard for
you.
Yes, that would be the context where you stated:
"Grow food or grow inedible biomass INSTEAD."
Please don't hesitate to ask for more help if your memory continues to
play tricks.
|
Non-foodcrop biofuels....
Derek Moody (to whom I was replying) said:
YM in that the powers-that-be are now moving to espouse non-foodcrop
biofuels, mostly ligniferous source?
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken
off the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced
(with petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as
well.
--
Oz |
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Stephen Temple
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz wrote:
| Quote: |
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken
off the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced
(with petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as
well.
|
If it is biomass for burning in a boiler, then the P and K are
recovered in the ash for land spreading. Miscanthus is even better,
in that it is harvested after leaf fall, with very little N, P or K
in the harvested stem at all.
Our own plans are for biogas, when virtually all N, P and K are
retained within the digestate for land spreading. We are planning to
generate electricity and heat for sale; alternatively the gas can be
scrubbed and used for CNG vehicles. I have ridden in a biomethane
powered Vito van.
My grandfather and father had a third of the farm down to fuel crops
- hay and oats for the horses, before they had petrol, TVO or diesel
power.
--
Stephen Temple
J F Temple & Son Ltd
Mrs Temple's Cheese - Quality Norfolk Produce
Barn Owl Instruments and Controls |
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Steve Firth
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
Sometimes your voice is muffled when you sit down. If I produce both fruit
and fuel from the same trees then I am producing two crops, one
edible, one not.
And is this described as a food crop, or an inedible fuel crop?
One is a food crop, the other is an inedible crop. Both grown on the
same land and both from the same tree. In fact to make matters more
complicated we also grow a third crop beneath the trees and in some
years a fourth.
Its a food crop. The others are incidental as far as politicians are
concerned.
|
We were talking about your mistake, not those of politicians.
| Quote: |
we practice rotation and grow legumes every fourth crop. We have no
petrochemical fertiliser input.
No tractor power, sprays etc? In any case that's irrelevant to it being
a food crop.
|
Of course we use tractors. We don't use sprays. And we don't use
petrochemical fertiliser inputs. Something that you claimed was
necessary, and that you claim again at the end of this post.
BTW, I think you've discovered a new mode of transport, moving
goalposts. Your goalposts are currently exceeding the speed of sound.
| Quote: |
Bear in mind the context up the thread a bit, if that's not too hard for
you.
Yes, that would be the context where you stated:
"Grow food or grow inedible biomass INSTEAD."
Please don't hesitate to ask for more help if your memory continues to
play tricks.
Non-foodcrop biofuels....
|
Both food and biofuel can be grown on the same land, at the same time,
without detriment to the productivity of either. I know because I'm
doing it at present. I can meet my domestic needs from 4HA, and I can
meet my income needs from the rest of the land. If time gets tough, I
can produce enough diesel to farm the land at the cost of 15% drop in
productivity.
| Quote: |
Derek Moody (to whom I was replying) said:
YM in that the powers-that-be are now moving to espouse non-foodcrop
biofuels, mostly ligniferous source?
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken
off the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced
(with petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as
well.
|
The ash goes back on the land. However what works at one scale may not
work well at another and may not work at all in the UK where the
conditions are not as good for rapid growth of biofuels. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Oz wrote:
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken
off the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced
(with petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as
well.
If it is biomass for burning in a boiler, then the P and K are
recovered in the ash for land spreading.
|
I understood that most of the P was lost (volatalised, as was said to
be the case for straw burning).
| Quote: |
Our own plans are for biogas, when virtually all N, P and K are
retained within the digestate for land spreading. We are planning to
generate electricity and heat for sale; alternatively the gas can be
scrubbed and used for CNG vehicles. I have ridden in a biomethane
powered Vito van.
|
The costings I have seen gave a poor return, however Things Have
Changed.
| Quote: |
My grandfather and father had a third of the farm down to fuel crops
- hay and oats for the horses, before they had petrol, TVO or diesel
power.
|
<grin> Indeed, people forget.
--
Oz |
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Stephen Temple
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz wrote:
| Quote: |
Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
Our own plans are for biogas, when virtually all N, P and K are
retained within the digestate for land spreading. We are planning to
generate electricity and heat for sale; alternatively the gas can be
scrubbed and used for CNG vehicles. I have ridden in a biomethane
powered Vito van.
The costings I have seen gave a poor return, however Things Have
Changed.
Double ROCs, the possibility of a capital grant (we are currently |
awaiting a decision) gives a payback of 7-8 years, if you can make
good use of the heat. We plan to use it for domestic heating, dairy
hot water, cheese process heat, heating cottages across the road.
Summer use for on-floor grain drying, possibly some lucerne drying.
--
Stephen Temple
J F Temple & Son Ltd
Mrs Temple's Cheese - Quality Norfolk Produce
Barn Owl Instruments and Controls |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Oz wrote:
The costings I have seen gave a poor return, however Things Have
Changed.
Double ROCs, the possibility of a capital grant (we are currently
awaiting a decision) gives a payback of 7-8 years, if you can make
good use of the heat. We plan to use it for domestic heating, dairy
hot water, cheese process heat, heating cottages across the road.
Summer use for on-floor grain drying, possibly some lucerne drying.
|
Indeed, with a dairy there is plenty of homes for low-level heat
sources. Also consider reverse refrigeration for heating since I expect
your size of digester will probably be highly exothermic.
However I was rather hoping for a discussion on energy and food in
general. Not least because politicians and others seem to think that
grain at £60/T is viable even with fuel at 20p/L, urea at £130/T and
PK's at around £140/T let alone current prices of 60p/350/600!!!
That's even before they ban triazole fungicides and numerous other
pesticides. At that point everything goes into grass and gets topped
(perhaps) once a year.
--
Oz |
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Stephen Temple
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz wrote:
| Quote: |
Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
If it is biomass for burning in a boiler, then the P and K are
recovered in the ash for land spreading.
I understood that most of the P was lost (volatalised, as was said to
be the case for straw burning).
|
See www.fibrophos.co.uk, who claim that the ash from the chicken
litter power stations analyse as 0-20-10.
--
Stephen Temple
J F Temple & Son Ltd
Mrs Temple's Cheese - Quality Norfolk Produce
Barn Owl Instruments and Controls |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:44 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
See www.fibrophos.co.uk, who claim that the ash from the chicken litter
power stations analyse as 0-20-10.
|
I imagine they have significant scrubbing mechanisms. Some I have heard
of apparently use something like an alkaline (CaHCO3?) water spray into
the exhaust.
I simply report what was always claimed (by MAFF/ADAS) in the days of
burning straw, I do not remember seeing any actual experimental work
though, although this may originally have been ancient (say late 60's?).
Mind you I could never think of any really plausible chemical entity for
this other than P2O5, which is of course very volatile but its also very
reactive and would (I should have thought) rapidly reacted with any
metal ions knocking about. OTOH you do make elemental phosphorus by
heating calcium phosphate with carbon, so there you go.
--
Oz |
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Edward
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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In message <rrW1CWFg85cIFwth@farmeroz.port995.com>
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
That's even before they ban triazole fungicides and numerous other
pesticides. At that point everything goes into grass and gets topped
(perhaps) once a year.
I noticed a reference to that recently. As you know, I'm a non |
fertilizing grazier and know next to nothing about dirt farming.
Can you elaborate on what products are proposed for the ban and the
effects these bans will have? Also, is there any scientific
justification for this action? On past experience, I suspect not:*(
--
Edward..
What can they know, whose talk is only of bullocks. |
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Derek Moody
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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In article <q2ClFPCxL1cIFwM6@farmeroz.port995.com>, Oz
<URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
Relevant statistic - with heating oil at 60 p/litre before VAT, then that
makes the equivalent grain price for burning as an oil replacement £240 per
tonne, quite a bit more than people are prepared to pay for it as food.
Eh? Is that right?
|
Cheapest own-band flour in local supermarket 47p/kg (was 34p before price
hikes) so retail is about double the figure - which suggests roughly 100%
markup.
I doubt milling and packing account for much
800g loaf flour equivalent 19p - see below
| Quote: |
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html
0.007333 barrels = 1kg oil = 45MJ = 1.166 lits
wheat is approx 13MJ/kg (fresh) so one lit oil has the same energy as
3.0 kg grain (predictably).
So with oil at 60p/l that equates to 20p/kg of wheat or £200/T.
OK somewhat lower than your figure but startlingly high just the same.
|
800g loaf flour equivalent 16p
When wheats were £60/t (ok not bread wheats) the loaf equivalent was 5p
actual bread wheats were probably 2p more. Own brand sliced were about 25p.
(For non cooks the other ingredients in a plain loaf are a small amount of
yeast, a pinch of salt, sometimes a little vegetable oil, maybe a fraction
of a gram of 'improver' [vitamin C] and water.)
| Quote: |
OSR is 45% oil worth 450 x .6 /1.166 = 230
plus 55% rapemeal worth about 550x.6/3.5 = 94 total £324/T
|
Retail rapeseed oil ca. 90p/l - ex road tax.
Cheerio,
--
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Derek Moody
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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In article <QKGdnTFnQN7bHu7VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.metronet>, Stephen Temple
<URL:mailto:usenet@jftemple.co.uk> wrote:
| Quote: |
Oz wrote:
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken
off the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced
(with petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as
well.
If it is biomass for burning in a boiler, then the P and K are
recovered in the ash for land spreading. Miscanthus is even better,
in that it is harvested after leaf fall, with very little N, P or K
in the harvested stem at all.
|
Most seem to be thinking of replacement for road fuels so products are
spread up and down thw highways.
| Quote: |
Our own plans are for biogas, when virtually all N, P and K are
retained within the digestate for land spreading. We are planning to
generate electricity and heat for sale; alternatively the gas can be
scrubbed and used for CNG vehicles. I have ridden in a biomethane
powered Vito van.
My grandfather and father had a third of the farm down to fuel crops
- hay and oats for the horses, before they had petrol, TVO or diesel
power.
|
BUT - this is the essential difference - almost all the 'used' plant
nutrients were either spread during field operations or neatly concentrated
in piles next the stable ready for targeted re-application. Net loss to
farm negligable.
Cheerio,
--
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Stephen Temple
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Derek Moody wrote:
| Quote: |
Most seem to be thinking of replacement for road fuels so products are
spread up and down thw highways.
|
While we are burning significant quantities of oil and gas for
static uses such as power stations and building heating, it makes
sense to replace these first with biomass, keeping the oil and gas
for mobile uses. This avoids conversion losses from biomass to
liquid fuels, and retains nutrients for re-use.
It seems strange to me to pick the most difficult market (biofuels)
while leaving the easy market (heating) largely untouched.
Of course the optimum for the static market is Combined Heat and
Power, using biomass. It is criminal that power stations (gas fired
amongst others) throw away the heat while householders have to burn
oil or gas to produce heat. They have it better organised on the
continent.
--
Stephen Temple
J F Temple & Son Ltd
Mrs Temple's Cheese - Quality Norfolk Produce
Barn Owl Instruments and Controls |
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Oz
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| Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Derek Moody wrote:
Most seem to be thinking of replacement for road fuels so products are
spread up and down thw highways.
While we are burning significant quantities of oil and gas for
static uses such as power stations and building heating, it makes
sense to replace these first with biomass, keeping the oil and gas
for mobile uses. This avoids conversion losses from biomass to
liquid fuels, and retains nutrients for re-use.
|
This is absolutely true but seems to have passed HMG and US by. In
particular OSR oil gives a 300% return on total energy in and can be
substituted for oil directly in power stations (probably including jet-
engine types).
Bioethanol is little more than break-even when processing is taken into
account.
| Quote: |
It seems strange to me to pick the most difficult market (biofuels)
while leaving the easy market (heating) largely untouched.
|
Yes (excluding rape oil).
| Quote: |
Of course the optimum for the static market is Combined Heat and
Power, using biomass. It is criminal that power stations (gas fired
amongst others) throw away the heat while householders have to burn
oil or gas to produce heat. They have it better organised on the
continent.
|
Indeed. Battersea power station did this to the Churchill Gdns council
house complex with a pipe under the thames.
--
Oz |
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