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Oz
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 Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
--
Oz |
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Pat Gardiner
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 08:57:09 +0100, Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
|
I really can't understand why I worry Oz so much. We all make
mistakes, even Oz.
OK, he was actually the first one to mention MRSA publicly in
connection with PMWS and pigs, and even though he did not make a
direct connection, he did have the grace to admit that I was right and
that Britain's pigs were very sick.
The refusal of the British government to even test pigs for MRSA
and/or refuse to release the results should worry everyone, not just
Oz. That's not paranoia. That's asking awkward questions that need
answering.
But it is very odd behavior, he takes the thread deliberately
off-topic and splays it all over the place.
I suspect that he agrees with the "Gardiner Hypothesis"
--
Regards
Pat Gardiner
Release the results of testing British pigs for MRSA and C.Diff now!
www.go-self-sufficient.com |
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Stephen Temple
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz wrote:
| Quote: |
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
|
Relevant statistic - with heating oil at 60 p/litre before VAT, then
that makes the equivalent grain price for burning as an oil
replacement £240 per tonne, quite a bit more than people are
prepared to pay for it as food.
--
Stephen Temple
J F Temple & Son Ltd
Mrs Temple's Cheese - Quality Norfolk Produce
Barn Owl Instruments and Controls |
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Derek Moody
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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In article <oyrlU1BV3xcIFwNH@farmeroz.port995.com>, Oz
<URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
|
YM in that the powers-that-be are now moving to espouse non-foodcrop
biofuels, mostly ligniferous source?
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken off
the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced (with
petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as well.
This also applies to straw/haulm from foodcrops which would ordinarily be
ploughed back to partially replenish the soil.
The obvious untapped resource is, of course, human sewage. Far too much is
wasted. There is a good deal of energy in it that could be extracted in a
diesel-like form - I've no idea what the exhaust fumes would smell like
though.
| Quote: |
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
|
Pete's missing atm, I expect he'll be back rsn. uk.politics know him of old.
Pat is hooking into every thread though and probably finding 'bent vets'
behind every comment. Cue paranoid rant:
Cheerio,
--
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Howard Neil
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Derek Moody wrote:
| Quote: |
The obvious untapped resource is, of course, human sewage. Far too much is
wasted. There is a good deal of energy in it that could be extracted in a
diesel-like form - I've no idea what the exhaust fumes would smell like
though.
|
At last, someone has found a use for this government. :-)
--
Howard Neil |
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David G. Bell
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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On Tuesday, in article
<oyrlU1BV3xcIFwNH@farmeroz.port995.com>
Oz@farmeroz.port995.com "Oz" wrote:
| Quote: |
but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
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So, what's new?
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
On the horizon, a carrier task force of the Salvation Navy was
turning into the wind, preparing to launch Zeppelins. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Relevant statistic - with heating oil at 60 p/litre before VAT, then that
makes the equivalent grain price for burning as an oil replacement £240 per
tonne, quite a bit more than people are prepared to pay for it as food.
|
Eh? Is that right?
Lessee
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html
0.007333 barrels = 1kg oil = 45MJ = 1.166 lits
wheat is approx 13MJ/kg (fresh) so one lit oil has the same energy as
3.0 kg grain (predictably).
So with oil at 60p/l that equates to 20p/kg of wheat or £200/T.
OK somewhat lower than your figure but startlingly high just the same.
OSR is 45% oil worth 450 x .6 /1.166 = 230
plus 55% rapemeal worth about 550x.6/3.5 = 94 total £324/T
Astonishing...
--
Oz |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Derek Moody <derek@farm-direct.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
YM in that the powers-that-be are now moving to espouse non-foodcrop
biofuels, mostly ligniferous source?
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Comes to much the same thing really. Grow food or grow inedible biomass
INSTEAD.
Of course you can switch edible biomass to food instantly, but you can't
switch inedible biomass to food. This could be vital were there to be a
crop failure somewhere in the world.
| Quote: |
They are still missing the basic point that -whichever- crop is taken off
the field it removes plant nutrient that will have to be replaced (with
petrochemical fertiliser?) if a subsequent crop is to yield as well.
|
Yes, although offtake of NPK in some tree cropping situations is
surprisingly modest.
| Quote: |
This also applies to straw/haulm from foodcrops which would ordinarily be
ploughed back to partially replenish the soil.
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Absolutely. Currently the fertiliser value exceeds the ex-field value so
not really worth selling.
| Quote: |
The obvious untapped resource
is, of course, human sewage. Far too much is wasted.
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Yes.
| Quote: |
There is a good deal
of energy in it that could be extracted in a diesel-like form - I've no idea
what the exhaust fumes would smell like though.
|
--
Oz |
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Steve Firth
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Comes to much the same thing really. Grow food or grow inedible biomass
INSTEAD.
|
I manage to do both Oz, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive
options. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
Comes to much the same thing really. Grow food or grow inedible biomass
INSTEAD.
I manage to do both Oz, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive options.
|
Strangely inedible and food are mutually exclusive. The crop is what you
grow, byproducts don't count as 'the crop'.
--
Oz |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Posted more widely...
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
| Quote: |
Been rather dead here (UBA) lately and I have been busy (and had a few
days 'up north') but I am amazed at the mindless goings on in the press
about biofuels, world food prices and oil prices.
Astonishingly nearly everyone seems to be so far off the mark as to the
economics of agriculture, and that includes third world agriculture,
that its positively dangerous.
So I thought a cross-fertilisation of disciplines might be useful
(assuming there is anyone in uk.politics.???).
Please for uk.politics.?? to note that uk.business.agriculture is
currently infested with a troll (pete: multiple personalities) and
gardiner (who is paranoid). Its not hard to spot either (pete will often
fake headers to pretend to be a regular poster).
|
--
Oz |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> writes
| Quote: |
Stephen Temple <usenet@jftemple.co.uk> writes
Relevant statistic - with heating oil at 60 p/litre before VAT, then that
makes the equivalent grain price for burning as an oil replacement £240 per
tonne, quite a bit more than people are prepared to pay for it as food.
Eh? Is that right?
Lessee
http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html
0.007333 barrels = 1kg oil = 45MJ = 1.166 lits
wheat is approx 13MJ/kg (fresh) so one lit oil has the same energy as
3.0 kg grain (predictably).
So with oil at 60p/l that equates to 20p/kg of wheat or £200/T.
OK somewhat lower than your figure but startlingly high just the same.
OSR is 45% oil worth 450 x .6 /1.166 = 230
plus 55% rapemeal worth about 550x.6/3.5 = 94 total £324/T
Astonishing...
|
--
Oz |
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Steve Firth
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
Comes to much the same thing really. Grow food or grow inedible biomass
INSTEAD.
I manage to do both Oz, they're not necessarily mutually exclusive options.
Strangely inedible and food are mutually exclusive.
|
No they are not, the two go hand in hand. Much of any food plant is
inedible.
| Quote: |
The crop is what you grow, byproducts don't count as 'the crop'.
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Sometimes your voice is muffled when you sit down. If I produce both
fruit and fuel from the same trees then I am producing two crops, one
edible, one not. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
| Quote: |
Sometimes your voice is muffled when you sit down. If I produce both fruit
and fuel from the same trees then I am producing two crops, one edible, one
not.
|
And is this described as a food crop, or an inedible fuel crop?
Bear in mind the context up the thread a bit, if that's not too hard for
you.
--
Oz |
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Steve Firth
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Biofuels,food prices and economics |
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Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> writes
Sometimes your voice is muffled when you sit down. If I produce both fruit
and fuel from the same trees then I am producing two crops, one edible, one
not.
And is this described as a food crop, or an inedible fuel crop?
|
One is a food crop, the other is an inedible crop. Both grown on the
same land and both from the same tree. In fact to make matters more
complicated we also grow a third crop beneath the trees and in some
years a fourth.
we practice rotation and grow legumes every fourth crop. We have no
petrochemical fertiliser input.
| Quote: |
Bear in mind the context up the thread a bit, if that's not too hard for
you.
|
Yes, that would be the context where you stated:
"Grow food or grow inedible biomass INSTEAD."
Please don't hesitate to ask for more help if your memory continues to
play tricks. |
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